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Dimitar Berbatov - Right man in the wrong era?

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*Disclaimer, hd did not sponsor this post.

He definitely did not flop here. He won a lot and was top goalscorer one season. He just wasn't the right fit for the way football was evolving, in my opinion.

He's actually a very funny and articulate guy. I've enjoyed his views post retirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jqLlCZUCYU

https://twitter.com/BallStreet/status/1150012967100059648?s=20

If he was born a few years earlier, he would have been a Cantona/Bergkamp/Zola type of foreign influence on English football.

With football moving towards 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 with a lone striker who must be complete, a second striker like Berbatov was on the way out.

And I enjoyed trolling hd and Flash. 

Edited by O

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1 hour ago, O said:

*Disclaimer, hd did not sponsor this post.

He definitely did not flop here. He won a lot and was top goalscorer one season. He just wasn't the right fit for the way football was evolving, in my opinion.

He's actually a very funny and articulate guy. I've enjoyed his views post retirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jqLlCZUCYU

https://twitter.com/BallStreet/status/1150012967100059648?s=20

If he was born a few years earlier, he would have been a Cantona/Bergkamp/Zola type of foreign influence on English football.

With football moving towards 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 with a lone striker who must be complete, a second striker like Berbatov was on the way out.

And I enjoyed trolling hd and Flash. 

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16 minutes ago, JJtheRed said:

As much as I love him, I’ll always wonder what would’ve happened if we’d got Ibra instead...? 

When Ronaldo left in 2009, he left a gap for a player like Zlatan. That arrogance.

But in 2010, Rooney was very much the main man and I don't think he would have welcomed a player like Zlatan who would have been playing in his area of the pitch.

He accepted van Persie in 2012/2013, as he was starting to be squeezed out by Ferguson at that point.

Tbf, Rooney wanted us to sign better players after Ronaldo left. He suggested Özil to Ferguson. And it didn't go down well, challenging the manager's methods. So maybe they could have coexisted. But better midfielders is probably what he wanted.

 

 

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IIRC the forum was split back in 2008. I was very much on the pro-Berba camp vs the Huntelaar one. He did well for us and we were successful, but I don't think it was necessarily because of him, more in spite of him. In hindsight, we should have gone for a player who was basically similar to Saha. We wouldn't have had to adjust our tactics so much. In 08/09 we became far more rigid for him and we became quite boring to watch at times. 

Unfortunately for Berba I think he only really had one good season for us - definitely no more than two - and tbh there was a few big games where we needed him to step up when replacing Rooney and he flopped - Bayern at home in 2010 when he came on, Blackburn away in the league in 2010 and City in the FA Cup semi final in 2011. Those games were huge in our season and he was garbage in each, missing chances. Had he stepped up in any one of those games and we'd be looking at even more success. 

This makes it seem like I think he was a flop which he most definitely was not - I have good memories of him - but I expected a striker who was going to become a legend and leave a proper legacy of defined greatness, which wasn't delivered. 

Still, he had some great moments and we won 2 titles with him. We can't be too greedy. 

 

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1 hour ago, O said:

When Ronaldo left in 2009, he left a gap for a player like Zlatan. That arrogance.

But in 2010, Rooney was very much the main man and I don't think he would have welcomed a player like Zlatan who would have been playing in his area of the pitch.

He accepted van Persie in 2012/2013, as he was starting to be squeezed out by Ferguson at that point.

Tbf, Rooney wanted us to sign better players after Ronaldo left. He suggested Özil to Ferguson. And it didn't go down well, challenging the manager's methods. So maybe they could have coexisted. But better midfielders is probably what he wanted.

 

 

It just would have meant Rooney dropped back a position. Though I could actually envisage SAF trying to play Ibra a bit deeper with it not really working.

Ibra-SAF would have been an interesting dynamic. Huntelaar was the one we were more strongly linked with though.

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28 minutes ago, TheManc said:

It just would have meant Rooney dropped back a position. Though I could actually envisage SAF trying to play Ibra a bit deeper with it not really working.

Ibra-SAF would have been an interesting dynamic. Huntelaar was the one we were more strongly linked with though.

Ibra likes to roam around like Rooney, not just be a target man. He's only a target man now due his lack of mobility from old age.

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I was never keen on his signing.  No doubt he had fantastic ability and could do some wonderful things, but he wasn't the type of player I thought we should have been bringing into the team.

The two seasons before (07/08 in particular obviously) was the best football we'd played for a long time, perhaps even some of the best we played during the Fergie's years.  We started to move from being a team playing fast-paced football, with lots of movement and a high work-rate to being a much more rigid team playing at a slower pace.  He wasn't solely the cause of course, and it got worse in later years when we signed other players (Valencia, Young etc) but that was the start.

I also thought he just lacked something. With the ability he had he was the type of player who could really have taken control of more games and really made his mark, particularly the bigger games , but he just seemed to let games pass him by.

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I think he was one of those players destined to be great in good teams and good in great teams. He had all the technical ability in the world, but he lacked the mentality, aggressiveness, arrogance and energy to be consistently a top performer. 

His football philosophy where you put more thought in the game rather than energy is romantic, but at the end of the day you cannot become a great in one of the best teams in the world without working your socks off. 

Edited by Dodor

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I think its a combination of his best years were at spurs and the system here wasn't going to get the best out of him. He was very much deployed like those names you mentioned at spurs..cantona bergkamp etc who were very much the focal point in a kind of 442 system. I liked that we signed him because i think teams can slack off after such momentous seasons and it shows an ambition to follow that up with a berba type signing. Keeps the squad on their toes. Anyway it was the next seasons where we weren't proactive enough that was the problem..after cr7 lef

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3 hours ago, Dodor said:

I think he was one of those players destined to be great in good teams and good in great teams. He had all the technical ability in the world, but he lacked the mentality, aggressiveness, arrogance and energy to be consistently a top performer. 

His football philosophy where you put more thought in the game rather than energy is romantic, but at the end of the day you cannot become a great in one of the best teams in the world without working your socks off. 

I agree that he needed a team built around him, rather than being one of many great players.

But a lot of the best technical players are/were lazy. Messi has been very lazy off the ball post Pep. Hazard fell out with Mourinho over his lack of work rate. Ronaldo saves his energy for making runs when his team are on the attack.

It's becoming more of a pressure put on modern forward and wide players now; working hard. This gegenpress era with managers like Pep, Klopp and Rogers demanding you win back possession high up and quickly after losing it, requires high stamina and aggression. Vardy, Firmino and Gabriel Jesus press relentlessly.

2 hours ago, John Locke said:

I think its a combination of his best years were at spurs and the system here wasn't going to get the best out of him. He was very much deployed like those names you mentioned at spurs..cantona bergkamp etc who were very much the focal point in a kind of 442 system. I liked that we signed him because i think teams can slack off after such momentous seasons and it shows an ambition to follow that up with a berba type signing. Keeps the squad on their toes. Anyway it was the next seasons where we weren't proactive enough that was the problem..after cr7 lef

We scored 18 more goals in the 2009/2010 league campaign without Ronaldo than we did during the 2008/2009 campaign with Ronaldo.

We became a defensive team after the win in Moscow. 08/09 was built around a solid defence with a regular back 5 in vdS, Evra, Vidić, Evans/Rio (injured more) and O'Shea. We conceded just 24 league goals.

In fact, we outscored the 08/09 title winning side every season after it under Ferguson.

We started to concede more goals (thanks to the declines of Evra, Vidić and Rio). People talk about the midfield and attackers not being good enough, but we only lost to a rampant Chelsea side in 2010 and to City on GD. Had our defence been a bit stronger, we would have won the league in 2012. Losing 3-0 against Newcastle, 3-2 against Blackburn and blowing a 3-1 lead against Everton (ended 4-4). And we also let City put 6 goals past us at Old Trafford. These 4 games cost us the title. Our attack scored 89 goals, but shipping 16 of our 33 goals conceded in those 4 games killed us.

Of course we would have won the title every season after had Ronaldo stayed, but the team was still very effective results wise after his departure. Ferguson is a fucking genius. The consistency bar one or two seasons since 1991 looks better every passing week. He only finished 3rd twice, everything else was either 1st/2nd. No matter who left or was sold.

 

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8 hours ago, O said:

I agree that he needed a team built around him, rather than being one of many great players.

But a lot of the best technical players are/were lazy. Messi has been very lazy off the ball post Pep. Hazard fell out with Mourinho over his lack of work rate. Ronaldo saves his energy for making runs when his team are on the attack.

It's becoming more of a pressure put on modern forward and wide players now; working hard. This gegenpress era with managers like Pep, Klopp and Rogers demanding you win back possession high up and quickly after losing it, requires high stamina and aggression. Vardy, Firmino and Gabriel Jesus press relentlessly.

We scored 18 more goals in the 2009/2010 league campaign without Ronaldo than we did during the 2008/2009 campaign with Ronaldo.

We became a defensive team after the win in Moscow. 08/09 was built around a solid defence with a regular back 5 in vdS, Evra, Vidić, Evans/Rio (injured more) and O'Shea. We conceded just 24 league goals.

In fact, we outscored the 08/09 title winning side every season after it under Ferguson.

We started to concede more goals (thanks to the declines of Evra, Vidić and Rio). People talk about the midfield and attackers not being good enough, but we only lost to a rampant Chelsea side in 2010 and to City on GD. Had our defence been a bit stronger, we would have won the league in 2012. Losing 3-0 against Newcastle, 3-2 against Blackburn and blowing a 3-1 lead against Everton (ended 4-4). And we also let City put 6 goals past us at Old Trafford. These 4 games cost us the title. Our attack scored 89 goals, but shipping 16 of our 33 goals conceded in those 4 games killed us.

Of course we would have won the title every season after had Ronaldo stayed, but the team was still very effective results wise after his departure. Ferguson is a fucking genius. The consistency bar one or two seasons since 1991 looks better every passing week. He only finished 3rd twice, everything else was either 1st/2nd. No matter who left or was sold.

 

2-0 loss away to Wigan did us in 2012 as well. SAF's tactics in that City game a week later cost us as well. Legs-gone Park told to man mark Yaya Toure makes no real sense and the midfield around him of Scholes-Carrick-Giggs meant we were hopelessly outmatched physically. We didn't have a single shot on target and iirc only had 2 shots from outside of the box off target. 

I'm sure every season has games and moments that made the difference though. If Macheda doesn't score that goal, Berba may not have won in 2009 for eg. 

Edited by TheManc

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I was slightly disappointed with the way Berba was treated at the club especially by Fergie. Wembley 2011 was a bit of a shitshow for him because he flew his family from Bulgaria only to be left in the reserves. Fucking Michael Owen was put on the bench over him and I can see how it could've been a shattering experience.

This might be slightly off topic but I remember @hdcantona used to make his threads on the old forum and he had linked a compilation video after the 10/11 season which was on Dailymotion if I'm not wrong. It had Clocks by Coldplay playing in the background and till date is one of the best football compilation videos I have seen.

Is there any chance someone has a link to that video in here? Haha.

 

9 hours ago, O said:

We started to concede more goals (thanks to the declines of Evra, Vidić and Rio). People talk about the midfield and attackers not being good enough, but we only lost to a rampant Chelsea side in 2010 and to City on GD. Had our defence been a bit stronger, we would have won the league in 2012. Losing 3-0 against Newcastle, 3-2 against Blackburn and blowing a 3-1 lead against Everton (ended 4-4). And we also let City put 6 goals past us at Old Trafford. These 4 games cost us the title. Our attack scored 89 goals, but shipping 16 of our 33 goals conceded in those 4 games killed us.

 

 

Fellaini destroyed us at OT and then we couldn't convert our chances against Swansea and Sunderland. It wasn't impossible to make up the GD given how shite our opposition were and I still think QPR deliberately lost to City so fuck 'em.

Berbatov also was to blame for the Blackburn draw in 09/10. We could've still won the title after losing to Chelsea but with Rooney injured we didn't have a reliable front man who could see us through. I guess this is why Fergie ostracized him later.

I'm still bitter that we couldn't do 7 titles in a row.

55 minutes ago, TheManc said:

2-0 loss away to Wigan did us in 2012 as well. SAF's tactics in that City game a week later cost us as well. Legs-gone Park told to man mark Yaya Toure makes no real sense and the midfield around him of Scholes-Carrick-Giggs meant we were hopelessly outmatched physically. We didn't have a single shot on target and iirc only had 2 shots from outside of the box off target. 

I'm sure every season has games and moments that made the difference though. If Macheda doesn't score that goal, Berba may not have won in 2009 for eg. 

I still get nightmares about the Wigan game. We lost 2-1 to Roberto Martinez and had some 75% possession. It was an Ashley Young masterclass.

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1 hour ago, Burns92 said:

I was slightly disappointed with the way Berba was treated at the club especially by Fergie. Wembley 2011 was a bit of a shitshow for him because he flew his family from Bulgaria only to be left in the reserves. Fucking Michael Owen was put on the bench over him and I can see how it could've been a shattering experience.

This might be slightly off topic but I remember @hdcantona used to make his threads on the old forum and he had linked a compilation video after the 10/11 season which was on Dailymotion if I'm not wrong. It had Clocks by Coldplay playing in the background and till date is one of the best football compilation videos I have seen.

Is there any chance someone has a link to that video in here? Haha.

 

 

 



Dailymotion all goals 10/11 but not coldplay (that was in another one which I also vaguely remember) 

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14 hours ago, Burns92 said:

 

I still get nightmares about the Wigan game. We lost 2-1 to Roberto Martinez and had some 75% possession. It was an Ashley Young masterclass.

didn't they outplay us? 

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On 05/05/2020 at 01:13, TheManc said:

didn't they outplay us? 

They did, yes. Very little possession though, we couldn't break them down with Giggs and Park in the midfield.

I remember how bad most of us were crying for a midfielder back then, lol.

On 04/05/2020 at 12:21, hdcantona said:



Dailymotion all goals 10/11 but not coldplay (that was in another one which I also vaguely remember) 

That's brilliant. Thanks!

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