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John Locke

Classic games

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Finding myself watching more old games or highlights lately. This was a great match between a quality argentina outfit and Englands golden generation. Some great attacking firepower on both sides playing at the top of their game.

Post your own memorable games here.

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I have watched a lot myself. It makes me appreciate the modern game more.

Players were far less explosive and mobile back then. A lot more direct games in England.

Players like Henry and Ronaldo de Lima look like players of today playing with a bunch of farmers. Quality in any era.

Cantona looks like a fat slob with great technique. Haha.

The footage is obviously inferior to today's frame rates, as is the grass, and even the kits are baggy. The balls are harder. So that can make it look ancient. 

Football has changed so much since the start of the century. This game from 2001 is very different to the game in 2011.

 

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2 hours ago, O said:

I have watched a lot myself. It makes me appreciate the modern game more.

Players were far less explosive and mobile back then. A lot more direct games in England.

Players like Henry and Ronaldo de Lima look like players of today playing with a bunch of farmers. Quality in any era.

Cantona looks like a fat slob with great technique. Haha.

The footage is obviously inferior to today's frame rates, as is the grass, and even the kits are baggy. The balls are harder. So that can make it look ancient. 

Football has changed so much since the start of the century. This game from 2001 is very different to the game in 2011.

 

Yeah I watched Wales v Germany from 1991 on bbc the other day and the standard was fucking abysmal, the latter were world champs 

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2 hours ago, O said:

I have watched a lot myself. It makes me appreciate the modern game more.

Players were far less explosive and mobile back then. A lot more direct games in England.

Players like Henry and Ronaldo de Lima look like players of today playing with a bunch of farmers. Quality in any era.

Cantona looks like a fat slob with great technique. Haha.

The footage is obviously inferior to today's frame rates, as is the grass, and even the kits are baggy. The balls are harder. So that can make it look ancient. 

Football has changed so much since the start of the century. This game from 2001 is very different to the game in 2011.

 

Teams like treble united and real madrid in their pomp ie the team who played us off the park in 2003 would still give teams a run for thei money. Of course the game evolves, tactics evolve and conditioning improves...maybe not at United of late but that's another story. 

On the other hand there was a different breed of player back then. There were some incredibly creative players and sides, england produced great rampaging midfielders like robson and gerrard, then you had mercurial playmakers like gazza and hoddle. The contrast of styles in that england argentina game is interesting. The old English style at its best could be devastatingly effective but now even england are adopting more continental approaches with more emphasis on positioning and possession than high temp and lung busting runs. Its unlikely we'll see english players of that mould again

Edited by John Locke

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1 hour ago, hdcantona said:

Yeah I watched Wales v Germany from 1991 on bbc the other day and the standard was fucking abysmal, the latter were world champs 

Game was much slower back then they'd only just got rid of the backpass rule. The welsh side of the early 90s was the best as far as I'm concerned. Hughes rush giggs speed southall and several others ho could hold their own. It was incredibly hard to qualify for tournament finals due to the limited places compared to now.

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2 hours ago, John Locke said:

Teams like treble united and real madrid in their pomp ie the team who played us off the park in 2003 would still give teams a run for thei money. Of course the game evolves, tactics evolve and conditioning improves...maybe not at United of late but that's another story. 

On the other hand there was a different breed of player back then. There were some incredibly creative players and sides, england produced great rampaging midfielders like robson and gerrard, then you had mercurial playmakers like gazza and hoddle. The contrast of styles in that england argentina game is interesting. The old English style at its best could be devastatingly effective but now even england are adopting more continental approaches with more emphasis on positioning and possession than high temp and lung busting runs. Its unlikely we'll see english players of that mould again

I don't like comparing players from different era anymore due to the different circumstance for the players in a given era.

Take Giggs for example. He had a great career. As good as you could hope for. But his goals tally of just 181 goals from 1000+ senior games makes him look poor in comparison with the wide players of today.

But that's the thing, football was different. Especially in England. You mainly had two strikers, and a winger's job was to supply them with good crosses. Which Giggs did for most of his career. Now the modern wide players is basically a wide forward who looks to cut inside and make diagonal runs to support a lone striker. You could never compare Giggs with Bale and be able to judge them fairly.

The pitches in England were terrible even in the early 00's. Old Trafford used to cut up really bad. Being able to provide a top quality pitch all year round has probably been the main factor behind a bigger emphasis on short passing instead of more direct play. You could't play intricate short passing on some of the surfaces back in the day.Too bobbly.

And I think we really need to credit modern defenders for being able to play in teams that are required to play out from the back and hold a high defensive line in a game that favours the attacker with the modern take on offside. And your keeper can't pick up your back passes.

The sport has changed so much and is constantly evolving. Some of Michael Jordan's haters think LeBron is better when they look back on the standard of some of the NBA games in the 80's and 90's. The athleicism has gone up a gear.

And modern golfers drive the ball miles more than the golfers of yesterday. That's down the equipment, and most likely PEDS as well. I think most sports are ramp with them, which is why the physical increase in athletes has risen.

 

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5 hours ago, O said:

I don't like comparing players from different era anymore due to the different circumstance for the players in a given era.

Take Giggs for example. He had a great career. As good as you could hope for. But his goals tally of just 181 goals from 1000+ senior games makes him look poor in comparison with the wide players of today.

But that's the thing, football was different. Especially in England. You mainly had two strikers, and a winger's job was to supply them with good crosses. Which Giggs did for most of his career. Now the modern wide players is basically a wide forward who looks to cut inside and make diagonal runs to support a lone striker. You could never compare Giggs with Bale and be able to judge them fairly.

The pitches in England were terrible even in the early 00's. Old Trafford used to cut up really bad. Being able to provide a top quality pitch all year round has probably been the main factor behind a bigger emphasis on short passing instead of more direct play. You could't play intricate short passing on some of the surfaces back in the day.Too bobbly.

And I think we really need to credit modern defenders for being able to play in teams that are required to play out from the back and hold a high defensive line in a game that favours the attacker with the modern take on offside. And your keeper can't pick up your back passes.

As you say giggs was more of a orthodox winger whose role was primarily to provide crosses and assists and then in the second part of his career he was used a lot in the centre of midfield. The fact that he played for so long obviously wouldn't have helped his goals ratio either. Harder to compare him with todays wide attacker who tend to operate further up the pitch and drift more centrally to favour more goalscoring opportunities. 

 

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In some ways this represented success in europe for Ferguson's first great side. 90-94. By 94 they were perhaps at their peak and had added several class players in schmeichel, keane, giggs, cantona and kanchelskis to their ranks but many of these players weren't eligible for the champions league. One wonders how far they could've gone in europe with all those players available.

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33 minutes ago, John Locke said:

In some ways this represented success in europe for Ferguson's first great side. 90-94. By 94 they were perhaps at their peak and had added several class players in schmeichel, keane, giggs, cantona and kanchelskis to their ranks but many of these players weren't eligible for the champions league. One wonders how far they could've gone in europe with all those players available.

The 1993/1994 side really epitomised 90's United, and the style of play in England.

Quick, direct, powerful and determined. A team full of warriors.

Hughes

Cantona

Giggs---------Ince----Keane-----Kanchelskis

Irwin-------Pallister----Bruce--------Parker

Schmeichel

And then Ferguson dismantled it quite easily and effortlessly over a 2-3 year period.

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I do wonder how good Cantona would have looked A. if we had our best team available for CL games, and B. How he would look if you swapped him with early 2000s Bergkamp or 2010s Berbatov?

His greatness, importance and legacy is undeniable but I wouldn't have him in a best United 11 if I was to bet my life on it.

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3 hours ago, John Locke said:

In some ways this represented success in europe for Ferguson's first great side. 90-94. By 94 they were perhaps at their peak and had added several class players in schmeichel, keane, giggs, cantona and kanchelskis to their ranks but many of these players weren't eligible for the champions league. One wonders how far they could've gone in europe with all those players available.

THE BASTARD was there with his merry gang of BASTARDS.    The freezing cold hail storm 15 minutes before kick off.    Them mighty Barcelona  who only sold 8000 tickets.     What a night.   RIP Sir Les Sealey.

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1 hour ago, THE BASTARD said:

THE BASTARD was there with his merry gang of BASTARDS.    The freezing cold hail storm 15 minutes before kick off.    Them mighty Barcelona  who only sold 8000 tickets.     What a night.   RIP Sir Les Sealey.

Would've loved to have gone to that game. Was a memorable European campaign especially after it being the first european football for a long while.

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8 minutes ago, John Locke said:

Would've loved to have gone to that game. Was a memorable European campaign especially after it being the first european football for a long while.

If you listen to the official United podcast (it's fairly new), hosted by David May, Helen Evans and some Sam geezer, they've interview a load of ex and current United players over the past 6 months.

The Denis Irwin one was good. He even said that the  you look at the route to the final in 99 compared to 1991, it's crazy. We played Pécsi Mecsek, Wrexham, Montpellier and Legia Warsaw. So Barcelona was huge step-up. That Barcelona team would go on to win 4 titles in a row, and won the European Cup just a year later. Stoichkov missing was a big bonus for us, as Irwin said he's the toughest opponent he's ever faced throughout his career.

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That season was a funny one. We beat the best Italian team home and away in Juventus, we lost to Madrid, who in turn were knocked out by Juventus in the next round, who then went onto lose on penalties to AC Milan in the final, who finished 3rd in Serie A.

Granted, they were without their best player in the final and against us, they were without their defence IIRC. Probably the best team in Europe that year.

Edited by TheManc

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6 minutes ago, TheManc said:

That season was a funny one. We beat the best Italian team home and away in Juventus, we lost to Madrid, who in turn were knocked out by Juventus in the next round, who then went onto lose on penalties to AC Milan in the final, who finished 3rd in Serie A.

Granted, they were without their best player in the final and against us, they were without their defence IIRC. Probably the best team in Europe that year.

We were very lucky to win 3-0. Should have been 3-3 or even 4-4.

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20 minutes ago, John Locke said:

When i think of that game the first thing that comes to mind is that neville lob.

I think that game also shows why Nicky Butt fell out of favour at United and dropped down the PL pyramid when the league became more technical and tactical after the arrivals of Mourinho and Benítez.

Having said that, he played one terrific through ball to Ole.

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3 hours ago, O said:

I think that game also shows why Nicky Butt fell out of favour at United and dropped down the PL pyramid when the league became more technical and tactical after the arrivals of Mourinho and Benítez.

Having said that, he played one terrific through ball to Ole.

Always found him pretty limited as a player. I don't know how he'd have got on under a different manager. In the current united setup he'd probably be one of the main ones getting the flak on this forum.

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1 hour ago, John Locke said:

Always found him pretty limited as a player. I don't know how he'd have got on under a different manager. In the current united setup he'd probably be one of the main ones getting the flak on this forum.

Like Lee Cattermole. Butt suited 90's football.

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On 11/04/2020 at 17:19, TheManc said:

His greatness, importance and legacy is undeniable but I wouldn't have him in a best United 11 if I was to bet my life on it.

BAN immediately!

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16 minutes ago, PVAD said:

BAN immediately!

I agree with him.

Cantona was the catalyst for the start of Ferguson's domestic dominance, but he is overrated by United fans in terms of his overall stature on the world stage.

Players like Cantona and Le Tissier were mavericks of the mid 90's. They played in the right era. 

 

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50 minutes ago, John Locke said:

In a best united xi playing a 442 cantona would be in. Otherwise I'd probably have someone else in there. 

4-4-1-1 is what Scholes likes to call United's traditional formation, or "the United way".

If that's the template, I would go for:

Law

Rooney

Giggs Charlton Keane Ronaldo

Irwin Vidić Rio Neville

Schmeichel

(But my option changes over the years)

  • You have Tommy Taylor, Law, Hughes, Cantona, Cole, Ruud and Rooney to choose from the strikers
  • Edwards, Charlton, Stiles, Robson, Keane, Scholes and Carrick to choose from in midfield
  • Giggs is certainty on the left wing
  • Best, Beckham and Ronaldo are the options for the right flank
  • 3 outstanding LB candidates in Tony Dunne, Irwin and Evra
  • Foulkes, McGrath, Bruce & Pallister, Stam, Rio and Vidić as CB options
  • Shay Brennan and Gary Neville at RB
  • Stepney, Schmeichel, vdS and De Gea between the sticks

So it all comes down to personal preference, really.

 

 

 

 

 

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