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The thing is, as fans we have lowered our expectations... to finishing in the top 4 and playing half decent football that is at the least enjoyable to watch. With our current squad no Utd fan that I know expects us to be challenging for titles and playing the amazing attacking free flowing football of old. Yes, that’s where we should be and that’s where we all want to be and want to get back to, but the majority (I hope) of fans understand that we are nowhere near that but with good planning and management structure we should get there in time. What we absolutely can’t do as a fan base is lower our expectations so low that we end up accepting mediocrity and a club with no vision or plan to get back to where we need to be. Top 4 is the absolute minimum we should accept for now and that’s what the board, management and players should be judged on. Anything lower cannot and should not be acceptable.

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8 hours ago, hdcantona said:

Equally though loads are saying we've lowered our expectations which is fine, it is true - but to some extent we're so shit now that we have to stop living in the past because we are not the top tier Manchester United anymore - look at how most people look at Milan now, we're not really much above that anymore - still a bit, but not much
 

Hold on, we're not good anymore? 😕😕😕

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It makes me chuckle still when some fans harp on about  "the rebuild" and how Ole is getting rid of the deadwood.

And Ed Woodbrain's comments this week about how the business model is working with "huge investment in the Academy and scouting network"😂.      A statement released literally hours after Fred had blew the lid off the whole charade that is the current United.    

The reality is that we are fuckin mess still, and the sooner the season is over the better. 

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20 hours ago, hdcantona said:

Equally though loads are saying we've lowered our expectations which is fine, it is true - but to some extent we're so shit now that we have to stop living in the past because we are not the top tier Manchester United anymore - look at how most people look at Milan now, we're not really much above that anymore - still a bit, but not much
 

It's not that. It's the entitlement that's the issue. Fans 'expect' us to be the biggest club around, and that's great but it excuses fuck all. Clubs have got money, ordinary clubs can spend. There are restrictions on spending so it's no even that possible to blow everyone out the water anymore, and that's ignoring City, Chelsea and co that could just match you.

The truth is we aren't winning fuck all without an actual plan, strategy or long term thinking. Fuck all, because there is nothing that separates you from your rivals. We've thrown the long term out the window - and I don't mean SAF long term or any of that bollocks. I mean long term other than hire a new manager, sign his players, sack him, repeat. 

Apologies @MrSwellman and @TheManc for the delayed response but here it is. Ole has implemented a plan that's quite simple but addresses fundamental issues at the club.

- wage bill/culture. They're one in the same. When we were pursuing Sanchez with City, Pep pulled out for the specific reason - squad management and culture. We offer our big signings big salaries that few others can match. The problem this creates is that you end up with players that are here for only the money. The danger further is that when shit goes wrong, they can just kick their feet up and the manager gets burned. You surrender the dressing room to the players, you bring in egos and effectively you lose the meaning behind the badge.

- meaningful youth.There's a difference to just playing youth. In this instance youth fixes the issues brought up in the first point - youth want to be here, for the badge more so. So they set an example like Williams has done, he wants that fucking position, he will fight for the badge and will stay here for his career. They go to war for the club. There's the counter argument, 'are the youth good enough' = that's up to the structural changes made with Nicky Butt and co, and also spending at this level like Mejbri for example. Of course, you cant just use youth, but this signifies longevity, it also seperates us from our opposition models.

- transfer policy. We are looking for a specific type of player, we're also looking to sign top British players. Players who are young for the most part, with potential to grow, but also to grow in the dressing room. Put a guy on 80k a week, he can work his way up to 200k a week if he wants it. That in itself is significant. So, I argued with TM about the fact that Ole wasn't at fault for not bringing in more players, simply because he wanted more but more crucially he wanted players here on the right terms. This is difficult and translates into tough negotiations we've seen over the past couple windows. But it also means missing out on some players, apart from players that are just not gettable. At the same time, there is also a pressing need at times for more short term ideas, as experienced by all clubs. Our fundamentals remain the same. The system also falls into place here - we buy players that fit the system, so instead of signing big name player A, you could sign lesser known player B who does the same thing but comes in under the right circumstances. The system = the formation, intended style of play (playing out the back eg), intensity, pressing. As for the Brexit FC claims, last I checked we were a British club , and under SAF we swooped for top English talent often - Rio, Carrick, Rooney etc. A good idea, these players know the league, the country, they don't need to adapt as much. Maddison steps into our team tomorrow.

- the rebuild and patience. These fundamentals need time, but patience is needed also to see the fulfilment of potential, in players and then in the system as a whole. Working on 3 seasons; the youngest team in the league matures, and adds the right players to it; but also Mejbri is going on 20, Greenwood 22, Williams 22, furthermore Rashford and Martial entering their peak, as with AWB, Scott, Lindelof, Axel for example. (excluding who ever we bring in under the transfer point). At the end of the 'rebuild' we have a maturing squad, a different culture, a better wage bill, youth and players who want to be here. The reason it has been so bad, apart from injuries to an already thin squad, is because these kinds of fixes don't happen over night and it's a result of short term thinking of a previous 6/7 seasons. Different players for different managers, exorbitant wage bills, player power and egos - unfortunately you need to get rid of all this shit before you can move forward.

It was fine, in the past we were the best, we never needed a plan as we weren't just Manchester United, we were Sir Alex FC. When that man left we were the same as any other club. Time for a plan, these are the right fundamentals, they fit the club be it with Ole or manager X, but for god's sake, stick to it or we will go decades without a league win.

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1 hour ago, St!mpy said:

It's not that. It's the entitlement that's the issue. Fans 'expect' us to be the biggest club around, and that's great but it excuses fuck all. Clubs have got money, ordinary clubs can spend. There are restrictions on spending so it's no even that possible to blow everyone out the water anymore, and that's ignoring City, Chelsea and co that could just match you.

The truth is we aren't winning fuck all without an actual plan, strategy or long term thinking. Fuck all, because there is nothing that separates you from your rivals. We've thrown the long term out the window - and I don't mean SAF long term or any of that bollocks. I mean long term other than hire a new manager, sign his players, sack him, repeat. 

Apologies @MrSwellman and @TheManc for the delayed response but here it is. Ole has implemented a plan that's quite simple but addresses fundamental issues at the club.

- wage bill/culture. They're one in the same. When we were pursuing Sanchez with City, Pep pulled out for the specific reason - squad management and culture. We offer our big signings big salaries that few others can match. The problem this creates is that you end up with players that are here for only the money. The danger further is that when shit goes wrong, they can just kick their feet up and the manager gets burned. You surrender the dressing room to the players, you bring in egos and effectively you lose the meaning behind the badge.

- meaningful youth.There's a difference to just playing youth. In this instance youth fixes the issues brought up in the first point - youth want to be here, for the badge more so. So they set an example like Williams has done, he wants that fucking position, he will fight for the badge and will stay here for his career. They go to war for the club. There's the counter argument, 'are the youth good enough' = that's up to the structural changes made with Nicky Butt and co, and also spending at this level like Mejbri for example. Of course, you cant just use youth, but this signifies longevity, it also seperates us from our opposition models.

- transfer policy. We are looking for a specific type of player, we're also looking to sign top British players. Players who are young for the most part, with potential to grow, but also to grow in the dressing room. Put a guy on 80k a week, he can work his way up to 200k a week if he wants it. That in itself is significant. So, I argued with TM about the fact that Ole wasn't at fault for not bringing in more players, simply because he wanted more but more crucially he wanted players here on the right terms. This is difficult and translates into tough negotiations we've seen over the past couple windows. But it also means missing out on some players, apart from players that are just not gettable. At the same time, there is also a pressing need at times for more short term ideas, as experienced by all clubs. Our fundamentals remain the same. The system also falls into place here - we buy players that fit the system, so instead of signing big name player A, you could sign lesser known player B who does the same thing but comes in under the right circumstances. The system = the formation, intended style of play (playing out the back eg), intensity, pressing. As for the Brexit FC claims, last I checked we were a British club , and under SAF we swooped for top English talent often - Rio, Carrick, Rooney etc. A good idea, these players know the league, the country, they don't need to adapt as much. Maddison steps into our team tomorrow.

- the rebuild and patience. These fundamentals need time, but patience is needed also to see the fulfilment of potential, in players and then in the system as a whole. Working on 3 seasons; the youngest team in the league matures, and adds the right players to it; but also Mejbri is going on 20, Greenwood 22, Williams 22, furthermore Rashford and Martial entering their peak, as with AWB, Scott, Lindelof, Axel for example. (excluding who ever we bring in under the transfer point). At the end of the 'rebuild' we have a maturing squad, a different culture, a better wage bill, youth and players who want to be here. The reason it has been so bad, apart from injuries to an already thin squad, is because these kinds of fixes don't happen over night and it's a result of short term thinking of a previous 6/7 seasons. Different players for different managers, exorbitant wage bills, player power and egos - unfortunately you need to get rid of all this shit before you can move forward.

It was fine, in the past we were the best, we never needed a plan as we weren't just Manchester United, we were Sir Alex FC. When that man left we were the same as any other club. Time for a plan, these are the right fundamentals, they fit the club be it with Ole or manager X, but for god's sake, stick to it or we will go decades without a league win.

You need to be good enough to implement the plan though.This "cultural reboot" is great - I am all for that and I think everyone is, but being good enough to implement it whilst achieving much lessened objectives on the pitch is a necessity. What do you think about the way we play? We're currently in 8th - odds on to be 9th after the weekend! You mention our signings, but is James anything other than a mid table player? Is Maguire one of the best defenders in the world? Is AWB going to be one of the best right backs in the world as he was bought to become? Whilst I don't think our signings have been a disaster unlike in previous years, they haven't been a big success either. If "better than  flop" is good enough for us, then we really are in trouble.

Changing from what we have been the last 5 years does not mean sticking with what we have currently. Ole's intentions are noble and great - but if he is not good enough to implement them, he should be replaced with someone who is, that also fits in with the club philosophy.

I think you are displaying blind faith to someone because of his intentions, which is quite a flawed thought process, IMO. It's just screaming of Liverpool in the early 1990s, 200s and 2010s. 

Ole may have the right idea, but so did Roy Hodgson at Liverpool. You are either good enough or you aren't. Just imagine if we replaced Ole 4-6 months ago. We'd probably be playing more exciting football, be closer to FIFTH, have CL and then have a much easier time in rebuilding. As it is we will finish 6th most likely, miss out on CL, fail to get star players in and then suffer even more pain. 

Edited by TheManc

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Stumpy paints a picture of sweetness and light.    Which is fine.   However its excessively flawed.   People say Klopp took 4 years.  Yes he did.   But it was clear from the minute he walked in that shit hole exactly what his plan was.    Their football improved literally over night.  He shipped out hangers on.   He sacked off their keeper.   Sold Cuntinho and invested really well.  No chief exec calling the shots.  No shirt seller signings.  He had total and absolute control.     

That is a million miles away from how it works at United.    We are a shit show.   Ole claimed half of the shit "wont be here next season".    Well they are still here.  And theyre still shite.   Even Young the club captain had the fuckin bollocks to refuse to play because he wanted away.      Can we imagine that happening under a proper manager.

What happened to his "Trust in youth"??   Ive seen more of Madeliene fuckin McCann than i have of Garner, Chong, Gomes.  

"Sanchez coming back to prove us all wrong"🙄     How come we ended up signing a whoops section Benteke from China in fuckin January??    Or is this all part of the rebuild??

Absolute fuckin comedy.

 

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4 hours ago, THE BASTARD said:

What a load 'o'bollocks.

Get Poch and his back room staff.  Back him with hard cash.    Get Woodbrain to fuck out the way.   Sorted.

Surely - it's possible to continue doing the early things @St!mpy sets out that ole's done *and* sign Poch ? 

Any club with a proper vision doesn't lose it when changing manager... 

Obviously we don't have it, we're so shittily run but the idea that we have to blow up some of the good things ole's done in the process of upgrading manager is untrue unless we're even more inept than we seem 

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9 minutes ago, hdcantona said:

Surely - it's possible to continue doing the early things @St!mpy sets out that ole's done *and* sign Poch ? 

Any club with a proper vision doesn't lose it when changing manager... 

Obviously we don't have it, we're so shittily run but the idea that we have to blow up some of the good things ole's done in the process of upgrading manager is untrue unless we're even more inept than we seem 

We don't have a proper vision. Woodward has trimmed the wage bill and signed some average British players, one for about 3 times his actual worth. We then signed Ighalo on loan from China. 

If they meet expectations, all of our amazing youth prospects are future mid-table players. Greenwood might have a chance of developing into a good player if he leaves though.

People actually want to give Ole credit for turning McTominay into a key player for us, LOL. 

Stimpy is literally delusional on this. Probably been licking handrails in Wuhan.

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On 14/02/2020 at 23:08, John Locke said:

The plan is all well and good but thats supposed to be the role of a dof. The coach has to bring the best out of the players and get them playing with passion and ways they can hurt the opposition.

Yes, not so simple though. The current setup at United actually supports the long term, as we had done under SAF of course. By this I mean we don't have a DoF because we give the manager full reign - that's all and well if you are planning on sticking with him. We havent. You bring in a DoF to continue the long term values while you chop and change the Head Coach. Not to say our structure can't work, just to say, stick with the fucking manager. The way you get a team playing with passion is through the right culture, as explained above.

On 14/02/2020 at 23:27, TheManc said:

You need to be good enough to implement the plan though.This "cultural reboot" is great - I am all for that and I think everyone is, but being good enough to implement it whilst achieving much lessened objectives on the pitch is a necessity. What do you think about the way we play? We're currently in 8th - odds on to be 9th after the weekend! You mention our signings, but is James anything other than a mid table player? Is Maguire one of the best defenders in the world? Is AWB going to be one of the best right backs in the world as he was bought to become? Whilst I don't think our signings have been a disaster unlike in previous years, they haven't been a big success either. If "better than  flop" is good enough for us, then we really are in trouble.

Changing from what we have been the last 5 years does not mean sticking with what we have currently. Ole's intentions are noble and great - but if he is not good enough to implement them, he should be replaced with someone who is, that also fits in with the club philosophy.

I think you are displaying blind faith to someone because of his intentions, which is quite a flawed thought process, IMO. It's just screaming of Liverpool in the early 1990s, 200s and 2010s. 

Ole may have the right idea, but so did Roy Hodgson at Liverpool. You are either good enough or you aren't. Just imagine if we replaced Ole 4-6 months ago. We'd probably be playing more exciting football, be closer to FIFTH, have CL and then have a much easier time in rebuilding. As it is we will finish 6th most likely, miss out on CL, fail to get star players in and then suffer even more pain. 

We have had a disastrously difficult season. There's context to that, for example, City lost Laporte and became a train wreck by their standards. We lost a player who contributed 13 goals and 9 assists last season, and not for a short period either, we lost depth and steel in Scott as well as our best player this season in Rashford, all at crucial times. This on top of an already thin squad subject to a culling and transitional period. We blooded in youngsters, and really struggled with rotation over the festive period - we had to play Andreas in CM ffs.

As for our signings, strange to take a stance like this other than what I can assume is just an angle that possibly supports your ideas.  Maguire wasn't worth 80 million, not his fault, or ours, but he was never going to be a VVD. He has come into a new team in turmoil, has now established himself as club captain and has had some good with some bad, we should expect improvement. He will improve. Luckily with AWB and James, they're both 22, it's fantastic how potential works, but only a fool will give the ruling on either, especially as the latter is having his first season in the PL. 

You have a brilliantly easy solution in 'he should be replaced with someone who is good enough, that also fits in with the club philosophy', is there anyone you have in mind? Enlighten me. It also seems you brushed over most of my points stated previously with this point. As I said before, there will be no point to this, you are not willing to try understand what I'm saying. I mean your point on us being able to bring in 'star players' in the last line suggests everything I said blew right over your head. One last thing, what was Hodgson's grand plan? See, the thing with Livepool during those times, is they came up against a Club who had patience, a plan and a long term model.

On 15/02/2020 at 02:54, hdcantona said:

Surely - it's possible to continue doing the early things @St!mpy sets out that ole's done *and* sign Poch ? 

Any club with a proper vision doesn't lose it when changing manager... 

Obviously we don't have it, we're so shittily run but the idea that we have to blow up some of the good things ole's done in the process of upgrading manager is untrue unless we're even more inept than we seem 

Hmm, yes and no. The vision is easy because that's what has been communicated to us by Ole. The next guy, albeit Poch or anyone else, could come in with their own idea, like trying to 'win again'. Insert short term signings, new systems and more deadwood. Basically, restart again with a long term plan that the fans don't have the patience for and will call for the plug soon after when we aren't Liverpool.

Could you point out how we're 'shittily' run? Surely you can't use results, because if we've started this process we might be well run, but are a while off seeing the results of that. We might be seeing the results of being poorly run previously, that's not to say we might not have made strides to fix this, or do you have proof?

On 15/02/2020 at 03:10, aardvarked said:

We don't have a proper vision. Woodward has trimmed the wage bill and signed some average British players, one for about 3 times his actual worth. We then signed Ighalo on loan from China. 

If they meet expectations, all of our amazing youth prospects are future mid-table players. Greenwood might have a chance of developing into a good player if he leaves though.

People actually want to give Ole credit for turning McTominay into a key player for us, LOL. 

Stimpy is literally delusional on this. Probably been licking handrails in Wuhan.

Nice try, but a rather poor attempt.

There are a myriad of reasons as to why we are in this position, I would think that our signings haven't yet proved to be the reason for that, rather what we already have. Andreas, an aging Matic (who's been good for us at times, just lacks the legs), Lingard, Jones, mistakes from DDG, Martial not contributing when needed, Mata having no pace, Shaw being injured, alongside others like Bailly - you know, those who have shown to just not be good enough under previous managers. The signings suggest a proper vision in the type of players, energy, hard working, down to earth, who will fight for their place. You have also conveniently left out Bruno Fernandes, and failed to put any reason into why we might have signed Ighalo, ON LOAN.

Very poor attempt on the youth. You'd have seen Sancho shipped off at City. Greenwood has had a very decent first season in the first team, he's at the right place, Williams has also looked a very good prospect indeed. The beauty of youth and potential.

People actually don't want to give credit Ole credit in any manner, for anything, LOL. By all means, be critical, but to be so blind as to just ignore EVERYTHING is a sin.

Aardvarked is literally delusional on this. Probably been licking balls in Wuhan.

Edited by St!mpy

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On 15/02/2020 at 00:06, THE BASTARD said:

Stumpy paints a picture of sweetness and light.    Which is fine.   However its excessively flawed.   People say Klopp took 4 years.  Yes he did.   But it was clear from the minute he walked in that shit hole exactly what his plan was.    Their football improved literally over night.  He shipped out hangers on.   He sacked off their keeper.   Sold Cuntinho and invested really well.  No chief exec calling the shots.  No shirt seller signings.  He had total and absolute control.     

That is a million miles away from how it works at United.    We are a shit show.   Ole claimed half of the shit "wont be here next season".    Well they are still here.  And theyre still shite.   Even Young the club captain had the fuckin bollocks to refuse to play because he wanted away.      Can we imagine that happening under a proper manager.

What happened to his "Trust in youth"??   Ive seen more of Madeliene fuckin McCann than i have of Garner, Chong, Gomes.  

"Sanchez coming back to prove us all wrong"🙄     How come we ended up signing a whoops section Benteke from China in fuckin January??    Or is this all part of the rebuild??

Absolute fuckin comedy.

 

Does anyone want me to actually address this bullshit? Or can we just continue with our educated discussion?

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1 hour ago, St!mpy said:

 

We're shittily run because the club has been a mess since Fergie retired - we're the only big name club anywhere near this stature without a proper structure in place above the manager, our transfers have been mostly a mess until Ole - when I say we're shittily run it's nothing to do with Ole as such, more the footballing side of the club has been at best neglected, or - more realistically - willfully exploited even before Fergie left and stopped papering over the cracks

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On 14/02/2020 at 20:14, St!mpy said:

It's not that. It's the entitlement that's the issue. Fans 'expect' us to be the biggest club around, and that's great but it excuses fuck all. Clubs have got money, ordinary clubs can spend. There are restrictions on spending so it's no even that possible to blow everyone out the water anymore, and that's ignoring City, Chelsea and co that could just match you.

The truth is we aren't winning fuck all without an actual plan, strategy or long term thinking. Fuck all, because there is nothing that separates you from your rivals. We've thrown the long term out the window - and I don't mean SAF long term or any of that bollocks. I mean long term other than hire a new manager, sign his players, sack him, repeat. 

Apologies @MrSwellman and @TheManc for the delayed response but here it is. Ole has implemented a plan that's quite simple but addresses fundamental issues at the club.

- wage bill/culture. They're one in the same. When we were pursuing Sanchez with City, Pep pulled out for the specific reason - squad management and culture. We offer our big signings big salaries that few others can match. The problem this creates is that you end up with players that are here for only the money. The danger further is that when shit goes wrong, they can just kick their feet up and the manager gets burned. You surrender the dressing room to the players, you bring in egos and effectively you lose the meaning behind the badge.

- meaningful youth.There's a difference to just playing youth. In this instance youth fixes the issues brought up in the first point - youth want to be here, for the badge more so. So they set an example like Williams has done, he wants that fucking position, he will fight for the badge and will stay here for his career. They go to war for the club. There's the counter argument, 'are the youth good enough' = that's up to the structural changes made with Nicky Butt and co, and also spending at this level like Mejbri for example. Of course, you cant just use youth, but this signifies longevity, it also seperates us from our opposition models.

- transfer policy. We are looking for a specific type of player, we're also looking to sign top British players. Players who are young for the most part, with potential to grow, but also to grow in the dressing room. Put a guy on 80k a week, he can work his way up to 200k a week if he wants it. That in itself is significant. So, I argued with TM about the fact that Ole wasn't at fault for not bringing in more players, simply because he wanted more but more crucially he wanted players here on the right terms. This is difficult and translates into tough negotiations we've seen over the past couple windows. But it also means missing out on some players, apart from players that are just not gettable. At the same time, there is also a pressing need at times for more short term ideas, as experienced by all clubs. Our fundamentals remain the same. The system also falls into place here - we buy players that fit the system, so instead of signing big name player A, you could sign lesser known player B who does the same thing but comes in under the right circumstances. The system = the formation, intended style of play (playing out the back eg), intensity, pressing. As for the Brexit FC claims, last I checked we were a British club , and under SAF we swooped for top English talent often - Rio, Carrick, Rooney etc. A good idea, these players know the league, the country, they don't need to adapt as much. Maddison steps into our team tomorrow.

- the rebuild and patience. These fundamentals need time, but patience is needed also to see the fulfilment of potential, in players and then in the system as a whole. Working on 3 seasons; the youngest team in the league matures, and adds the right players to it; but also Mejbri is going on 20, Greenwood 22, Williams 22, furthermore Rashford and Martial entering their peak, as with AWB, Scott, Lindelof, Axel for example. (excluding who ever we bring in under the transfer point). At the end of the 'rebuild' we have a maturing squad, a different culture, a better wage bill, youth and players who want to be here. The reason it has been so bad, apart from injuries to an already thin squad, is because these kinds of fixes don't happen over night and it's a result of short term thinking of a previous 6/7 seasons. Different players for different managers, exorbitant wage bills, player power and egos - unfortunately you need to get rid of all this shit before you can move forward.

It was fine, in the past we were the best, we never needed a plan as we weren't just Manchester United, we were Sir Alex FC. When that man left we were the same as any other club. Time for a plan, these are the right fundamentals, they fit the club be it with Ole or manager X, but for god's sake, stick to it or we will go decades without a league win.

Not once but twice:

Sir Alexander Matthew Busby

Sir Alexander Chapman Ferguson

 

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59 minutes ago, hdcantona said:

We're shittily run because the club has been a mess since Fergie retired - we're the only big name club anywhere near this stature without a proper structure in place above the manager, our transfers have been mostly a mess until Ole - when I say we're shittily run it's nothing to do with Ole as such, more the footballing side of the club has been at best neglected, or - more realistically - willfully exploited even before Fergie left and stopped papering over the cracks

You're buying into Ole's Brexit?

Equally as shit. Especially your boy, Slabhead.

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25 minutes ago, O said:

You're buying into Ole's Brexit?

Equally as shit. Especially your boy, Slabhead.

I like AWB, and Bruno loads, we should take a punt on someone like James every year - being rinsed on slabhead's fee is the same old same old though I agree

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Stimpy  your fucked in the head, there is no plan, no improvement , no chance of Ole being here after CL qualification is gone.

I`m at a loss as to where your mindset is coming from, have you actually watched a game this season (even on tv). as the amount of chances created each game is self evident . or are you a PR plant from woodys backroom boys. For sure your not a true fan , following a piper over the cliff is not loyalty, its suicide (lemmings) I hope Ole when sacked never comes to the uk in my lifetime again, he`s a traitor for cash.

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