MikeM

Even the Almighty made mistakes.

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Just a little note for all these revisionists talking about how Jose should be called on every mistake - Like even Sir Alex didn't make any?

1: Sold the club down the river over a race horse

2: Refused to invest "because there was no value in the market" which meant extensive rebuilding needed doing - plus we missed out on players who would have been awesome here, like Ballack, Essien, Hazard etc.

3: Loyalty to players who weren't up to snuff, like Gibson, Cleverley and Evans.

4: The failures to use players in proper roles - Kleberson and Anderson for example.

5: Bebe, Obertan, Djemba Djemba, Diouf - he bought his share of dodgy players.

6: Selling Jaap Stam over a fucking book.

7: Choosing Moyes as his successor. (Although apparently he did ask Pep first)

8: Letting Rooney run rings around him.

So yes, he was the greatest manager we ever had, but let's not pretend he wasn't prone to the odd bollock drop either.

 

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There's loads to batter Fergie with if we want to go that route. He was a cold, ruthless, stubborn, bully and control freak. His fallout with the shareholders and later nepotism left us with the Glazers and Moyes. His record in Scotland before he came to United is overrated.

At the end of the day we loved him because his methods provided huge entertainment and success on the pitch.

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Maybe we'll feel the same way about Jose in a year or two? I just find it extremely hypocritical that some of the exact same criticism can be levelled at one, and not the other.

By the way, in later years I seem to recall that the quality entertainment wise significantly had dropped off.

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1 hour ago, MikeM said:

Maybe we'll feel the same way about Jose in a year or two? I just find it extremely hypocritical that some of the exact same criticism can be levelled at one, and not the other.

By the way, in later years I seem to recall that the quality entertainment wise significantly had dropped off.

I can forgive Jose a lot of things, but not for ruining United's football and my enjoyment of the game.

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1 hour ago, lucretius said:

Speaking of mistakes, if the linesman hadn't made one yesterday, we'd be in fourth. Pretty thin margins to decide to start puffing Mourinho up over, and pretty sad to denigrate someone who rebuilt the club from the ground up, put 25 years of his life into, won 13 leagues, 5 FA cups, two European Cups and did more to make it successful than literally anyone before and since just to big up someone who could barely last a year without flirting with PSG, and whose only trophy of note he slags other people off for winning.

This is literally where we're at now: making Fergie look bad to make Mourinho look good. You can put a massive, massive, fucking list of Fergie's acheivements in the pro column to balance those out. 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8 are complete bollocks anyway. Mourinho's pro column reads 'Europa League. Might win league if he gets to outspend everyone again'.

Shocking that it's coming from the top reds as well.

 

If linesman hadn't make mistake in 2010 we did win the league that season. 

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4 hours ago, MikeM said:

Maybe we'll feel the same way about Jose in a year or two? I just find it extremely hypocritical that some of the exact same criticism can be levelled at one, and not the other.

By the way, in later years I seem to recall that the quality entertainment wise significantly had dropped off.

Hypocritical? Weren't you on the LVG out bandwagon? Was he given time? Moyes? It is hypocritical of you to call others hypocritical.

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19 minutes ago, Vanrooney said:

Hypocritical? Weren't you on the LVG out bandwagon? Was he given time? Moyes? It is hypocritical of you to call others hypocritical.

It took quite a while to change my opinion on LVG actually - and Moyes was given a fair chance despite my misgivings. I just feel that some people want Jose to fail just so they can look clever and smug.

Also, attacking someone personally is also a great sign your arguments are not that sound. I'm not going to resort to that.

Edited by MikeM

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mourinho's style of football may not be entertainig but the current need of the hour are trophies or else we will be the new liverpool soon enough. once we have got some stability and success maybe then we can go for some long term planning but two three years now without any major trophies will destroy us. The glazer debt is still as it was before and any drop in revenues will harm us commercially. 

Regarding the money spent then the overall spending has incresed in the league and united has paid top dollars before and will continue to do so as all big clubs do. Barcelona, madrid, bayern they all are top spenders in their leagues and worldwide to keep being successfull. 

A second place finish in the league can be regarded as a average season and surely not justifies changing manager.

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1 hour ago, MikeM said:

Because I don't cling religiously to the past, have an agenda against the manager and want the best for the club?

So the ones that..respect the past,and are so thankful, off Safs contribution,and wish too see our club go a notch higher than Saf,as it rightfully should be,and are not happy because the previous 2 managers  brrought Us down to a top 6 team,and now José, whom in your eyes is the only one out there,that can get us that success ,and more,yes Jose has improved on the previous 2 to an extent ,but after spending  so much,even Gary Neville, would have achieved, I'd go as far as too say,many on here would have managed it,it's not like we are neck and neck with City,calling out the manager for the sake of the club,does not make you less of a supporter..if I have faith in God, which I do,then that' unconditional, if I have faith in my family,that' unconditional, where there is transfer windows, and staff,coming and going,and improvements can be made with the certain right decisions,then the fans wanting too have their say,if not say,then at least the fan can ,vent his frustration,at the lack of progress. .

And I can bet your last dollar,if Saf came back,and just fieded the academy   for a season,he would still manage a top 10 finish. Can you say that about José? 

Criticism is the path for improvement in the economical world..

 

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34 minutes ago, MikeM said:

Also, attacking someone personally is also a great sign your arguments are not that sound. I'm not going to resort to that.

Attacking someone personally? You called people hypocritical to start with. I just pointed out that it is hypocritical of you to do that. Hardly a personal attack. Btw, I have seen your arguments just being 'but you are a city fan'. 

34 minutes ago, MikeM said:

It took quite a while to change my opinion on LVG actually - and Moyes was given a fair chance despite my misgivings. I just feel that some people want Jose to fail just so they can look clever and smug.

A while? Less than 2 years? Football is as bad if not worse, and for two seasons we were chasing fourth like we are doing with Jose. Almost two seasons gone with Jose, there is no coherence in the attack or defense or in the midfield. LVG was fired for the same reason? Do you seriously think people care about being 'right' on an anonymous forum that hardly anyone gives a shit about than actually see their team do well?  

Edited by Vanrooney

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The "no value in the market'' thing was incredibly annoying despite the fact it was a dig at City, but the only players we really missed out on because of Fergie's stubbornness were Ozil and Moura. Passing up on Mesut was clearly a mistake, but while Moura is a good winger I think it's fair to say he was overpriced. I suppose you could add Aguero too but Fergie's problem was with the agent's demands rather than the actual transfer fee.

Ballack rejected us because we weren't performing well in the Champions League at the time we made a move for him. Two years later we made him look silly by beating the team he chose in the CL final. We were definitely after Essien, and I'm pretty sure we were one of a number of clubs after Hazard too. Then there's Robben, Ronaldinho, Neuer, Benzema...Jon Obi Mikel...and many more who simply chose to join other clubs, that's not Fergie's fault. I think the big transfer mistakes he made were passing on Zidane when he was at Bordeaux, Lampard when he was at West Ham and deciding Ribery wasn't good enough for us after half an hour of watching him play.

Can't say I agree with your assessment of some of these other players either. Gibson was an okay backup player, Cleverley was a very promising player when Sir Alex was still here & Evans was solid up until LVG took over. Kleberson was a flop, but Anderson's career was unfortunately ruined by injuries & his love of partying, not the decision to play him as a central midfielder. Bebe was definitely a dodgy signing, no arguments there, Obertan though was just another young player who failed to become good enough. We signed Djemba Djemba after some impressive performances for Cameroon & apparently he was good at Nantes too....he arrived, he flopped, shit happens. Not sure why anyone would have beef with Mame Biram Diouf though? He had a very good record for Molde so we took a chance on him, he hardly made any appearances for us so we loaned him out to Blackburn where he did well, we eventually sold him to Hannover where he was almost as prolific as he was in Norway; and he's had a pretty decent time at Stoke too. The only mistakes I see with Diouf is Sir Alex didn't give him enough chances, we sold him too soon & for too small a price.

Anyway, I do agree that Jose gets too much stick but using the mistakes Sir Alex made to defend him is a bit ridiculous, especially when most of the points in the OP could be argued against. I'm pretty sure everyone on here would agree Sir Alex wasn't perfect, however, the list of things he got right would be much longer than the list of things he got wrong. 

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Agree with everything @Munroe says, except...

I think the "no value in the market" thing was sincere. Before Fergie became a football manager he was more of a businessman, owned and ran his own pub. I think, rather than it being the Glazers withholding funds, a dig at City or anything else, Fergie genuinely disliked to pay over the odds for a player.

Edited by gav81

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6 minutes ago, gav81 said:

Agree with everything @Munroe says, except...

I think the "no value in the market" thing was sincere. Before Fergie became a football manager he was more of a businessman, owned and ran his own pub. I think, rather than it being the Glazers withholding funds, a dig at City or anything else, Fergie genuinely disliked to pay over the odds for a player.

Andy Cole, Ruud, Rio, Veron? Fergie had no problem paying massive fees for players. Martin Edwards had fits at the money we spent. Fuck the Glazers. Underinvestment from 2005 onwards is one of the reasons we have spent crazy money since Fergie stepped down.

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3 minutes ago, Albert Quixall said:

Andy Cole, Ruud, Rio, Veron? Fergie had no problem paying massive fees for players. Martin Edwards had fits at the money we spent. Fuck the Glazers. Underinvestment from 2005 onwards is one of the reasons we have spent crazy money since Fergie stepped down.

Cole was an absolute bargain. I remember reading the paper and thinking it must be April 1st when it said we got him for £7 million - I couldn't understand why Newcastle let him go. Ruud, Rio and Veron were a fair price too. At least I didn't think it was crazy money at the time they signed.

If the change in spending strategy came about when Fergie retired (and I agree it did), yet the owners didn't change, doesn't that suggest it was Fergie deciding not to overspend? I do know in Fergie's book he says the Glazers never once withheld funds when he asked for them.

Not defending the Glazers here because I think we'd be better off without them draining the club. I just think Fergie had a more prudent transfer strategy than shopping for so many ready made 'names'. He was the same with player wages, especially the youngsters, kept a tight control on them.

 

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I can see the knives already sharpening before the next match lol. 

Ferguson made mistakes as all managers do, even great ones. I'm not going to start comparing him to jose. If jose does half as good then itll have been a great appointment. He has to live under the shadow of thst era as did moyes and lvg and as will subsequent managers also.

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